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FORUMET REDD VÅRE BARN • View topic - The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:19 am 
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The Norwegian Embassy in Bucharest steps up Norway's "information"


13 January 2016:

The Embassy has replaced its original "information" from 29 December:

Royal Norwegian Embassy in Bucharest, 29 December 2015

with a revision:


and this is also published in Romanian:


It starts:
"The Norwegian Embassy in Romania has received many inquiries in connection with the demonstrations that have taken place recently. On its own initiative, the embassy has reached out to the Romanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Parliament and the Prime Minister’s office, to give information about the Norwegian Child Welfare Service, and the principles upon which it is based. The embassy has underlined the principle of confidentiality."

It of course says: "The embassy has underlined the principle of confidentiality." This is Norway's crown trick: Everybody in an official capacity in some profession to do with a CPS case is given all sorts of "information" about the case, the parents, the children, and so on. Even journalists are often told all sorts of things which our authorities hold to be "facts" which "prove" that the CPS are right and that nothing must leak out, because that is said be so terrible for the children and the parents. Journalists are given this sort of information expressly not to publish it, but to "appreciate" the official view of the case and write what the authorities approve of, or better still (in the authorities' opinion) not publish at all. The point of all the secrecy is that the family should be frightened from telling the public, so that there is no outrage, no way the population will stand up as one man and take all the system's people to task and have them stopped.


There is a new kind of order out from the Ministry:
"A new circular letter contains guidelines for how to handle cases where the child has attachment to several countries."

In it, it is stated more clearly that the CPS should investigate whether children they take may have some sort of "attachment" to their relatives in the other country or simply to the other country so that they could be placed there.

No doubt the CPS will try to get around this in several ways. And if they have to "permit" the children to go to the other country, they will try to force a guarantee from the other country that the parents will not be allowed to see the children there. To be on as "safe" a side as possible, they will try to have the other country swear to keep the children in an orphanage there.

In that connection, another thing on the web page of the Norwegian Embassy in Bucharest may be of some interest:

A piece from 14 December of last year has been moved to the top of the Embassy's webpage – painting a rosy picture:


First and foremost, this is just simple propaganda aimed at saying that the "few" families that "have to" be split up, have been dependably evaluated by Norwegian CPS – demonstrated by this fact of the warm cooperation over child protection between the two countries. But another fact should also be noted:

As we see, this article ends by bringing up the matter of "Norway Grants" – money from Norway. Norway has for a long time been active providing money and sending personnel to teach other countries how to do social work, including child protection. They are eagerly pursuing this e.g in the Baltic states and the Czech Republic.

See also




Anyway, IF Norway is forced to let the Bodnariu children go to Romania, there will, we must hope, be an absolute outrage in Czechia, over the children of Eva Michaláková (cf ). Norway will (again "of course") come up with "attachment": Eva Michaláková's children are held to have been away from their parents for so long now that they have no "attachment" to them any more but are "attached" to their foster parents. First of all, it is nonsense (but this is not the place to take up the spurious attachment theory once again). Secondly, Norwegian CPS and Norwegian courts are the ones who have all along made the case to drag out endlessly. There is this fantasy in Norway, certainly among all those who have been taught CPS "science", that as long as children are in the hands of the CPS, nothing wrong happens to them, and since parents do not matter to children any more than any replacement carers do, then children should be kept in CPS control until it is absolutely, absolutely certain that the parents are in no way imperfect carers.

*

The conclusions that can be drawn from this are obvious, they have in fact been clear all along: Norway will in no way stop its way of "helping" children and their families. They continue to propaganda for it, and will now no doubt come up with further pretence and camouflage. It is all the same clear that official Norway feels pressed. Usually they pretend the opposition is negligible, does not have to be taken seriously. At present, they can't quite manage that.

  

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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:25 am 
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Agerpres, 14 January 2016

A considerable quantity of the usual from Norway. Do the Romanian authorities believe in the reality of it all, e.g. that the County Governor (Fylkesmannen) vil do anything about a complaint? They are the state's representatives in the county, they never criticise official policy, and even if they criticise something the CPS have done, the CPS ignore it (they have no legal obligation to do anything Fylkesmannen suggests).

  

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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:50 pm 
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The parents have been shown the grace of being allowed to talk with their daughters on the phone!



Facebook-siden Norway Return the children to Bodnariu Family, 14 januar 2016


**

We hear of deep longing and suffering. That seems to illustrate the degree of truth in the CPS's statement after only a day away from home: that the children had already adapted and did not long for their parents.

Which may in a sense have been true. To be away from the parents from a day or two can be experienced as a kind of holiday (although it is unlikely when the manner in which they were taken enters the equation). But soon, it becomes clear that they are not allowed to go home. Then come the grief, the desperation and the longing.

  
  

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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:37 pm 
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Website Bodnariu Family, 5 January 2016

A summary of the case, accompanied by a spoken declaration of intent.


*


European Apostolic Leaders, 14 January 2016

A discussion of the attitudes of the Norwegian Pentecostal movement. It includes a description of an episode some years ago of a controversy over spanking, but the emphasis is a criticism of the way Norwegian Pentecostal leaders will not give any moral support to the Bodnariu family.

*

Peter Costea, Alliance of Romania's Families:

Creștinul Azi, 3 December 2015

A letter (in English) to the Norwegian ambassador in Bucharest, very insightful, focusing e.g on the harm done to the children by the separation.


  

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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:28 am 
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Romania-Insider, 12 January 2016

"A new hearing in this case will take place on January 20. According to Adevarul.ro, Dumitru Nan also encountered difficulties in finding a defense counsel. They’ve had a total of three lawyers during the case, after having several problems with them. For example, one of the lawyers just stopped answering their calls.
    Dumitru and Mihaela Nan have the right to see their children two hours a week. According to Dumitru Nan, the meetings take place in a hotel room, in the presence of social services employees."


This case if possibly located in Tromsø, in the north of Norway.

*

A demonstration in Suceava has apparently included the Nan family:
"Aproximativ 4.000 de persoane, printre care şi mulţi copii, au participat, sâmbătă, în faţa Palatului Administrativ din Suceava, la un miting de solidaritate cu familiile Bodnariu şi Nan"


Romania Libera, 16 January 2016

  

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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:41 pm 
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The delegation of parliament members from Romania


(Are meeting the County Governor and Barnevernet)
Parlamentsmedlemmer og senatorar frå Romania er i dag i Førde i møte med Fylkesmannen om ei barnevernssak i Naustdal.
(Parliament members and senators from Romania are in Førde today meeting the Couty Governor regarding a CPS case in Naustdal)
nrk Sogn og Fjordane (the national broadcasting co, county district office), 20 January 2016


At 2 pm:

"Delegasjonen frå Romania blir følgt av eit rumensk tv-selskap." (The delegation from Romania are accompanied by a Romanian tv team.)

Let us hope that tv shows clearly how Norwegian authorities behave and how much they "explain".

"Saka der barnevernet i fjor haust tok ut fem born frå ein norsk-rumensk familie i Naustdal, har fått stor merksemd både i Romania og blant kristenkonservative i fleire land. Politiet har sikta foreldra for oppdragarvald, mens foreldra sine støttespelarar meiner norsk barnevern hindrar ei kristen oppseding."
(The case in which the CPS last autumn took five children out of a Norwegian-Romanian family in Naustdal has received great attention both in Romania and among Christian-conservatives in several countries. The police have charged the parents with using violence as correction, while the supporters of the family hold that Norwegian child protection prevents a Christian upbringing.)

As lopsided as the way Norwegian media usually presents CPS cases, in other words. Many Romanians and others are quite concerned over what Norway counts as so serious violence that the children are to be punished with lasting separation from all their family. Even the use of the word "støttespiller" (supporting "player") for the defenders of the family's right of being a family is quite derogatory.


At 8 pm:

The article has been updated during the day and its title is now Ber barnevernet snu i omstridd sak (Asking Barnevernet to turn around in a controversial case)

"Fylkesmann Anne Karin Hamre sa før møtet at målet deira var å gi best mogleg informasjon om korleis barnevernet jobbar i Norge.
    For den rumenske delegasjonen var målet eit heilt anna:
    – Å få endra avgjerda, seier den rumenske senatoren som leia delegasjonen."

(The county governor Anne Karin Hamre said before the meeting that their aim was to give the best possible information about how Barnevernet works in Norway.
    For the Romanian delegation the goad was different:
    – To have the decision changed, says the Romanian senator leading the delegation.")

"– Vi har gjeve dei generell informasjon utan at det er knytt til nokon spesiell sak. Og då har vi blant anna informert dei om rutinane barnevernet har her i landet når det er mistanke om vald, seier Hanne Sæbø i sosialseksjonen hos Fylkesmannen."
(– We have given them general information without connecting it to any special case. And that means we have e.g. informed them about the routines which Barnevernet has in this country when there is a suspicion of violence, says Hanne Sæbø in the social division at the County Governor's office.)

Ah yes, the usual from Norway, then – they "inform" about how wonderful everything is. Well, we knew it beforehand. As far as any practical outcome of this meeting is concerned, the Romanians could have spared themselves coming. But of course now they have seen at first hand what thousands of families here experience.

But poor Romanians: They believe the court procedure will save the family?
"– Rumenarane vil respektere avgjerda til retten, men fram til dommen er sett er det ikkje normalt å ta ungane frå foreldra, seier Vasiliev."
(The Romanians will respect the decision of the court, but until there is a judgment, it is not normal to take the children away from the parents, says Vasiliev.)

"Men den rumenske delegasjonen held fast ved at dei meiner at det å ta borna frå foreldra er eit drastisk grep før foreldra har vore i retten.
    – Vi oppfattar vel at vi har ulike ståstadar i høve til kva som er barns beste, seier Sæbø."

(But the Romanian delegation sticks to their opinion that taking the children from the parents is a drastic measure until the partents have been to court.
    – We take it that we probably have different attitudes in relation to what is in children's best interest, says Sæbø.)

    

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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:35 am 
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The office of the County Governor of Sogn and Fjordane has presented an account of the meeting with the Romanian visitors.


(Meeting a delegation from the Romanian parliament)
Fylkesmannen i Sogn og Fjordane (the County Governor of Sogn and Fjordane, division Children and parents, 20 January 2016


"Ambassaden kontakta kommunen og Fylkesmannen på vegner av delegasjonen, med ønskje om eit møte for å drøfte prinsipp og prosedyrar for det norske barnevernet, for å få ei betre forståing av korleis barnevernet arbeider i Noreg og å skape eit grunnlag for gjensidig forståing mellom styresmakter i dei to landa."
(The Embassy contacted the municipality and the County Governor on behalf of the delegation, with a wish for a meeting to discuss principles and procedures for the Norwegian Child Welfare Services (Barnevernet), in order to get a better understanding of how Barnevernet works in Norway and to create a basis for mutual understanding between the authorities in the two countries.)

The meeting, then, is presented by the County Governor as a certainty that more instruction about "the ideal Norwegian child protection" is what is needed to create a better understanding between the authorities in the two countries!

The information which is to make the authorities in the two countries to be good friends again, was of the usual substanceless type:

"Fylkesmannen og Naustdal kommune har gitt delegasjonen generell informasjon om den norske forvaltninga, og lov- og regelverk, roller og oppgåver til det norske barnevernet."
(The County Governor and the Municipality of Naustdal have given the delegation general information about Norwegian administration, and about laws and regulations, roles and tasks in the Norwegian Barnevernet.)

  

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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:38 am 
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The Christian newspaper Dagen has allowed an article written by a lawyer who is fairly outspoken and critical about Barnevernet (he has been even more outspoken in another article in two other newspapers):


Erik Bryn Tvedt, lawyer:
(A risk for the rule of law)
Dagen, 21 January 2016


"Å miste et barn er en større straff enn å komme i fengsel, vil mange mene. De fleste som mister sitt barn til barnevernet har ikke gjort noe straffbart."
(Many would hold that losing a child is greater punishment than being put in prison. Most people who lose their child to Barnevernet have not done anything criminal.)

"Slik skjuler altså myndighetene sin maktutøvelse overfor småbarnsfamilier i Norge. Barnevernsmyndighetene vil ikke redegjøre for sine beveggrunner innenfor en av de mest grunnleggende menneskerettigheter; retten til familieliv etter den europeiske menneskerettighetskonvensjon artikkel 8."
(In this way, the authorities hide their exercise of power towards families with little children in Norway. The CPS authorities will not account for their reasons within one of the most fundamental of human rights; the right to a family life according to the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR), Article 8.)

"Slik er det altså i Norge. Vi utelukker fra offentlig debatt konkrete saker om når det er riktig å gå inn å ta omsorgen fra foreldre! Norsk praksis er stikk i strid med EMK artikkel 10 og FNs konvensjon om sivile og politiske rettigheter artikkel 19 nr 1 og 2"
(This, then, is how things are in Norway. We exclude from public debate concrete cases concerning when it is right to intervene and take custody away from parents! Norwegian practice is totally in opposition to ECHR Article 10 and the UN convention on civil and political rights Article 10 no 1 and 2")

"Uten offentlighet på et så viktig rettsområde kan norsk barnevernsrett ha utviklet fremgangsmåter og vurderinger som ikke tåler dagens lys."
(Without openness in so important an area in the law, Norwegian child protection law may have developed procedures and assessments which cannot stand the light of day.)

  

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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:50 am 
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The newspaper Vårt Land (Our Country) continues without stop its active, blind propaganda for Barnevernet:

I Norge for å påvirke i barnevernsak (In Norway to influence a CPS case)
http://www.vl.no/nyhet/i-norge-for-å-påvirke-i-barnevernsak-1.677452
Tidligere justisminister i Romania er blant politikerne som nå besøker Norge for å få ført fem barn tilbake til foreldrene.
(Former minister of justice in Romania is among the politicians who are now visiting Norway in order to have five children brought back to their parents.)
Vårt Land, 21 January 2016

"– Jeg håper vi har informert slik at rumenske myndigheter har en større forståelse av norsk barnevern. Det har vært en misforståelse om at dette handler om religion, men vi har understreket at religion aldri er årsaken, sa fylkesmann Anne Karin Hamre til avisen Firda etter møtet med politikerne."
(– I hope we have informed in such a way that Romanian authorities have a greater understanding of Norwegian child protection. There has been a misunderstanding that this is about religion, but we have emphasised that religion is never the cause, said County Governor Anne Karin Hamre to the newspaper Firda after the meeting with the politicians.)


Well-known tactic: They make the case sound gradually more and more mysterious and serious:
"– Erkjenner straffskyld for familievold
    Rett før jul ble det kjent at politiet hadde siktet foreldrene for familievold. Politiadvokat Sissel Kleiven ved Sogn og Fjordane politidistrikt sier til Firda at foreldrene nå i avhør har erkjent straffskyld for oppdragervold.
    Kripos har vært involvert i etterforskningen. Årsaken er at det yngste barnet bare er noen måneder gammelt. Kleiven ønsker ikke å gå inn i hvilken type vold foreldrene har erkjent. Hun regner med at saken vil være ferdig etterforsket i månedsskiftet januar/februar."

(Admit to be guilty of family violence
    Just before Christmas it became clear publicly that the police have charged the parents with family violence. Police lawyer Sissel Kleiven of Sogn and Fjordane police district says to Firda that the parents have now under formal questioning admitted punishable guilt of violence in child rearing.
    Kripos () has been involved in the investigation. The reason is that the youngest child is only a few months old. Kleiven does not wish to go into what type of violence the parents have admitted. She thinks the investigation of the case will be finished around the end of January / beginning of February.)

*

Vårt Land also repeats its self-advertisement:
"LES TRYGVE JORDHEIMS KOMMENTAR PÅ RUMENSK: Reevaluarea adevăratului sens al cuvântului "persecuție" "
http://www.vl.no/meninger/kommentar/reevaluarea-adevăratului-sens-al-cuvântului-persecuție-1.675363
(Read Trygve Jordheim's commentary in Romanian: ….)
  
  
  

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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:52 am 
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The parents have used violence against the children, and acknowledge this violation of law. As I understand it, this does not necessarily imply more than accepting having raised the children in a way that was quite accepted in Norway until recently.

It is an adequate reaction from the authorities to try to correct this.


The problem evolves, when the system overreacts, and neglects the fact that the measures used by the CPS in itself can be regarded as a kind of psychological violence or trauma that can harm the children significantly, - unless the parents have commited sexual crimes or practiced serious violence towards the kids.

It is strange that an institution which is supposed to protect children does not understand what should be basic knowledge in child welfare. Putting children in fostercare is an extreme measure that should only be used in extreme cases, i.e. when the children have suffered real abuse. This is not the matter in many cases.

In my opinion, Norwegian authorities have lost touch with common sense in these cases.

Rumanian politicians have not.


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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:05 pm 
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New good and relevant articles almost every day now on the debate website



The articles are in English. Today 23 January there is quite a hard-hitting one about a Romanian senator in the delegation to Norway who says, after viewing all documents in the case and having talked with all relevant persons, that he sees the actions of the CPS and other Norwegian authorities against the Bodnariu family as clearly religious discrimination / persecution.

The website belongs to Americans with a Romanian background. They can read articles in Romanian and are well ahead of us in Norway, here where our official media see to it that the little we hear through them, is quite politically correct propaganda for the "view" of the Norwegian child protection agency.

  

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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:35 am 
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A Romanian website has back in December put out a notice about the case in Korean!


agnus dei - english + romanian blog, 28 December 2015

  

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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:53 am 
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The Romanian delegation with critical statement


– Gestapo-metoder fra barnevernet (Gestapo methods from Barnevernet)
http://www.dagen.no/Nyheter/sterk-kritikk/–-Gestapo-metoder-fra-barnevernet-297679
(The link to the article must be copied and entered into the address line, because of the double hyphen --)
Dagen, 23 January 2016

"– Problemet er hvordan det norske barnevernet forstår og iverksetter lovverket. I denne saken framstår barnevernet i Norge som et Gestapo-system, sier Ardelean. – Det kan du sitere meg på, understreker han."
(The problem is how the Norwegian CPS understand and carry out the law. In this case, Barnevernet in Norway presents itself as a Gestapo system, says Ardelean. – You can quote me on that, he emphasises.)

"Noe av det som har vært spesielt, er at de på norsk side ikke vil diskutere spesifikke saker. Det henvises da til at opplysningene i saken vi tar opp, er konfidensielle slik at de ikke kan si noe om dem. Denne totale mangelen på gjennomsiktighet er det veldig vanskelig for oss å forstå. Selv ikke ekteparets advokater har fått full innsikt i dokumentene i saken, sier Titus Corlatean.
    Han kritiserer det han oppfatter som mangelfullt eksternt innsyn i og kontroll med det norske barnevernets virksomhet."

(Among the things which have been quite unusual, is that the Norwegian side will not discuss individual cases. A point is made of the information in the case we address, is confidential so that they cannot say anything about it. This total lack of transparency is extremely difficult for us to understand. Even the couple's lawyer has not had full access to the documents in the case, says Titus Corlatean.
    He criticises what he judges to be a lack of external access into and control over the activities of the Norwegian Barnevernet.)

"Den tidligere utenriksministeren mener det bryter med internasjonal lovgivning at rumenske myndigheter ikke straks ble underrettet om at en av landets borgere var utsatt for etterforskning i en så alvorlig sak.
    Dette skjedde først etter lengre tid, opplyser Corlatean, som sier at det offisielle Romania ble kjent med saken gjennom presseoppslag før de fikk informasjon fra norske myndigheter."

(The former minister of foreign affairs holds it to be against international law that Romanian authorities were not immediately notified that one of the country's citizens was subject to investigation in so serious a case.
    This only happened after a long time, Corlatean relates, saying that official Romania came to know about the case through articles in the media before they received any information from Norwegian authorities.)

    

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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:00 pm 
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antenna3, 17 January 2016

*

(The idealised image of Norway is fraying internationally – 10,000 demonstrated against Norway on Saturday in Oradea, Romania)
Søkelys (Searchlight), 24 January 2016

Good summary of several different things and connections between them, especially concerning what has been written by Christian sources. The source for this article is given as the American-based website Delight in Truth.

*

Ionuţ John Voloşen:
Posting by Peter Ranoloff on the facebook page of Oslo Lufthavn Gardermoen, 22 January 2016

Comprehensive and well argued.

  

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 Post subject: Re: The five children of a Romanian family taken in Norway
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:01 am 
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Norwegian gobbledygook

It seems a very good thing that all the Norwegian rigmarole is exposed. In the comments section under the article – Gestapo-metoder fra barnevernet (cf ), the newspaper Dagen asked for somebody willing to make an English translation of the article! One Ailin Zimmel has come up with one:

– Norway's Child Protective Services Utilize Gestapo-Methods
http://www.dagen.no/Nyheter/Family/–-Norway’s-Child-Protective-Services-Utilize-Gestapo-Methods-298354
(The link must be copied and pasted into the address box, because of the double hyphen --)
Dagen, 25 January 2016

The very best demonstration of the activeties of Norwegian child protection and Norwegian child protection authorities comes from the deputy secretary of state, Kai-Morten Terning (political next-in-command to Solveig Horne), in the last paragraph of the article. My guess is that it gives foreign readers the blessing of a hearty, hollow laugh or else they shake their heads out of joint. The Romanian parliamentary delegation has spent of its valuable time listening to this:

"– We consider it important to meet with representatives of foreign governments to maintain a good dialogue. It is important to explain the judicial framework and the mandate of Child Protective Services; and even more so, the independence and objectivity displayed in decision-making by regional governments and the judicial branch. We always emphasize that Child Protective Services is first and foremost a service agency for children and their families. However, it is difficult to reach a broad audience with correct information, and we are unable to comment on specific cases, says State Secretary Terning to Dagen."

Just a couple of disagreements with the translation here:
The original has "… the judicial framework within which the Child Protective Services work, what their mandate is ..." (reads like he is defending the poor, helpless local CPS and protecting it from responsibility),
"regional governments" refers to "fylkesnemndene" - the County Committees / Boards, not e.g to "Fylkesmannen" - the County Governor (the state's executive representative in a county).

  

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